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Stephen N Russell

Why Nazis Lost the War

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On 28.12.2017 at 5:59 PM, George Collins said:

Tiger was a heavy tank 


It is often said that the Tiger was too heavy, and, because of that, lumbering and malfunctioning. But if engine is designed to cope with the weight, then you have no problem, most tanks today are around the same if not heavier than the Tiger. So, I never understood, why Tiger didn't have a bigger engine? 

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12 hours ago, John said:

Hitlers overall plan at the beginning was to catch the world by surprise & conquer it, step by step, as quickly as possible before the world had a chance to realise the danger & prepare for it.

This process was going along perfectly until the day he marched his troops into Prague, after having declared to the world that he only wants to reunite germans and has no further territorial demands to make in Europe.

The western world realised from this that Hitler was just a big dangerous liar. As far as I know, Hitlers only private comment at the time was, "Dont worry, in 2 weeks no one will talk about it".

Hitlers failure to realise he had let his own cat out of the bag, left him baffled just over a year later when he expected the British would surely come to his peace table after his stunning victory over France & the BEF.

He couldnt figure out the real reason Churchill was able to convince the British to hold out & refuse terms, despite their hopeless position.

He still didnt realise the damage he had done to his own world reputation the previous year in Prague. He began to think that British stubbornness must surely be based on other factors, like Russia.

If Hitler had paid more attention to the damage he had done by allowing himself to get caught telling a big lie, he would have realised the urgency to finish Britain off first, before completing his conquest of the rest of France, after Dunkirk.

I think this was the first of Hitlers many big mistakes which cost him the war. He had told a big fat lie to the world, and got caught, but he didnt (want to?) realise it.

This is where I think Chamberlain unwittingly played his part in Hitlers undoing. His unexpected intervention in the Czech crisis had forced Hitler to pause, to behave himself, to give false assurances to the world, which would later come back to haunt his progress.

Hitler was an egotistical half brain, he thought the Germanic influence in the Anglo Saxons of the UK,  would look at him as an ally and would join him, not just that simple I know. 

But really the Dunkirk thing , no matter how many ideas we spin out about why he didn't push onwards from there, baffles me and still makes me think that Dunkirk ended Hitlers war, I am sure he thought the Brits would roll over, and was waiting for it to happen. I also believe the world did have an idea of what he was up to as far as his Third Reich and spreading "the word" of Aryanism . 

 

He gave the stubborn Brits that little bit of time, and they took it to re group. They have a history of invasion , talk about the last two hundred years of European invasion and over lording of indigenous people around the world, the British Isles have been getting invaded for probably nearly 3000 years. At least 2000 , its History. 

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Although it's misinformed, the Brits hold the opinion that Germans have no sense of humour. This can lead to serious misunderstandings (Hell, it leads to misunderstandings between the Brits and the Americans.) The structure of the German language - which is a "portmanteau" language - does not lend itself easily to word-based humour. English is delightfully ambiguous and nuanced, German tends to be precise.A German word tends to say exactly what it means.. An English word like (for example) "Set" can mean dozens of totally different things. The result being that the Brits spent the inter war years sending "signals" to Germany which were totally misunderstood. Back then, debates from the Oxford Union were front page news; they famously debated "This house would NOT die for King and Country", and the motion was carried. Remember, The University of Oxford has provided pretty much every English Prime Minister EVER, and the Oxford Union is the nursery for many (if not most) senior politicians. And here they were, announcing to the world an unwillingness to lay down their lives for their country, WOULD England really stand up for Poland? Hitler's advisors thought  that they wouldn't, and took this as proof. Crazily, one of the people whose advice they relied upon was PG "Plum" Wodehouse, the author of the "Jeeves and Wooster" stories. The Nazi inner circle apparently took Bertie Wooster to be an accurate portrayal of the young Englishmen they'd be facing across the battlefield, not as a comedy figure. Just as Brits mistakenly think that Germans "don't tell jokes" (whereas it's a specific KIND of joke that they don't do - called "Worterspiel" - word games) When the British tell jokes, quite often the Germans don't realise that it WAS a joke.
As a Russian officer once commented to me... "The Germans are a military nation... but the English are a warlike nation". When I asked him to clarify the remark, he smiled and said "The Germans are precise, and usually quite predictable They do what they're supposed to do, and they do it beautifully. The English on the other hand... totally unpredictable, one generally has NO IDEA what they'll do next; they see war as some kind of a game." The same guy also commented "Your SAS has the wrong motto, you know, 'who dares wins' isn't good. It ought to be "Where the f**K did THEY come from?!'"

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The Germans lost the war for "essentially" the same reasons the Japanese lost:  they totally underestimated their opponent(s).  Hitler was an idiot:  he followed Napoleon and attempted a two-front war against Britain and Russia, with the same results AND I hasten to add that Boney was a far-greater military mind than the Austrian Corporal.  Of course, the Japanese Empire failed to listed to Yamamoto when he said:  "I can run wild in the Pacific for the first six months; after that, I am not sure."

In each case, the industrial might of the U.S. simply rode right over both of them.  Period. Dot.

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Yamamoto knew that taking on America , was probably a losers decision any way.

And he knew it way before the first six months, as he said.

 He had studied in the USA and saw the sleeping giant , being born!

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When I have read about the different stages of the evil "Third Reich Saga" I have repeatedly been baffled by the fact that Adolf Hitler managed to keep the show together. He surrounded himself both with nuts, criminals and experts. As long as he believed the experts things went fairly well, but as the war progressed he started to flip out himself and started trusting the nutcases more than the generals. And Hitler himself knew best and the genrals had to obey and take the blame for Hitler's blundering.

But there was another megalomaniac who wanted Europe for himself. Stalin! I think that even if attacking the Soviet Union in 1941 now seems like a move made too soon, Stalin might have had plans to attack the Third Reich territories within 6 months or a year because he got reinforcements for the Red Army in great numbers when German troops were closing in on Leningrad, Moskow and Stalingrad. The Red army had suffered enormous losses from the surprise attack Operation Barbarossa that the Wehrmacht started 22 june 1941 and had retreated constantly until 5 december 1941 losing much equipment and having great numbers of soldiers killed, wounded or taken prisoners of war.

Think what could have happened if it had been Stalins reinforced army striking the first blow against German lines in june 1942. They might have advanced onto German soil in shorter time then it took for the german troops to reach Moscow and Stalingrad..

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You need to look carefully at the real capabilities of Stalin's army in that period.  If they'd "invaded" Germany, can you spell "slaughter?"  The German army (not to mention Air Force) would have swallowed them whole.  It wasn't until the German army/air arm had exhausted themselves on the Eastern Front that Joe's boys & girls could actually come to grips with their adversaries.

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6 hours ago, MISTY 44 said:

You need to look carefully at the real capabilities of Stalin's army in that period.  If they'd "invaded" Germany, can you spell "slaughter?"  The German army (not to mention Air Force) would have swallowed them whole.  It wasn't until the German army/air arm had exhausted themselves on the Eastern Front that Joe's boys & girls could actually come to grips with their adversaries.

Trading space for time, sounds like a good strategy to me 

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I suspect that Stalin had no idea of Hitlers trickery. I suspect that if Stalin had wanted to at the time take over the west , he perhaps would have been the one to break the agreement with  Hitler and invade. Instead of then other way around He didn't, I believe he was extremely  distraught when Barbarossa began. He'd been duped?

Anyway Hitler went to quick into Russia, and caught the Russian winter that is what finished him off, and the stubborn Russian people, who fought to the end , even those who wouldn't , could wind up with a bullet from their own army.

 

I don't think Stalin was that ambitious, until maybe later on , even then his paranoia stuffed him up. He was a tyrant scared of his own shadow , and nearly caved in at one stage, totally mis understanding his colleagues  who he thought were going to arrest him and kill him but actually he was still needed as leader. 

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I may have said this before, but one of the great mysteries of the 20th.century, is how Stalin, the most suspicious of men, allowed himself to be totally taken in by Hitler in 1941.

It has been claimed- the "Ïce Breaker" theory-that Stalin was himself planning an attack westward and one of the reasons why the Red Army was encircled and out flanked as easily as they seemed to be was that they were deployed not for defence, but rather concentrated for offensive operations.

This theory has been, in general,discredited, but then, staff of all armies make contingency plans for various possible scenarios

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12 hours ago, MISTY 44 said:

You need to look carefully at the real capabilities of Stalin's army in that period.  If they'd "invaded" Germany, can you spell "slaughter?"  The German army (not to mention Air Force) would have swallowed them whole.  It wasn't until the German army/air arm had exhausted themselves on the Eastern Front that Joe's boys & girls could actually come to grips with their adversaries.

I'm not sure what you mean by capabilities. RKKA was by far a much better equipped force in the summer of 1941. That is before Wehrmacht overrun and seized literally millions of POWs and vast quantities of RKKA assets in the matter of weeks. 

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4 hours ago, Philip Whitehouse said:

This theory has been, in general,discredited, but then, staff of all armies make contingency plans for various possible scenarios

I don't think there should be any geniune doubt about RKKA plans being - at least generally - aggressive in nature. By now it's pretty well documented. As I mentioned before, Mark Solonin uncovered in Russian archives a dozen versions of the high level deployment plan for RKKA troops and assets released between September 1940 and May 1941. All of these versions assume the main offensive thrust from Lvov bulge toward Krakow and Katowice. The "debunkers" have yet to produce an alternative.

Edited by George Collins

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20 hours ago, MISTY 44 said:

You need to look carefully at the real capabilities of Stalin's army in that period.  If they'd "invaded" Germany, can you spell "slaughter?"  The German army (not to mention Air Force) would have swallowed them whole.  It wasn't until the German army/air arm had exhausted themselves on the Eastern Front that Joe's boys & girls could actually come to grips with their adversaries.

True.

As it was, it took the Russians well over 12 months of fighting the Germans before they could gradually start matching it with them in terms of tactics, which they were learning from the Germans.

Any attempted Russian invasion of Germany, prior to that, would have soon ended in a biblical scale disaster for the Russians & Stalin.

Hitler managed to hold his people together with him to the bitter end the same way Stalin held things together during the crisis in front of Moscow...Through fear. By making his people more afraid of him & his loyal henchmen, than they were of the enemy.

Summarily shooting or hanging anyone who dares to chicken out of the fight, no doubt, a very effective method.

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Both the german and soviet military forces had their weaknesses in june 1941. 

The soviet troops had a lot of obsolete equipment, bad leadership and a not so bright supreme commander Stalin who had in his fear for disloyal generals and officers killed or imprisoned a lot of his military forces most experienced leaders. They also hadn't yet adapted their troops to stand up to the german "Blitzkrieg".

Hitler on the other hand was not able to concentrate all of the german strenght on "operation Barbarossa" because he had troops in both Greece and North Africa that would have been good to have at the eastern front.

Germany was short on oil for its mechanized blitzkrieg and I think they couldn't understand how difficult it would be to get new troops, fuel, ammo, equipment and food to the forces that had advanced deep into Soviet territory. They had not thought of how to govern the occupied territories or how to take care of the great numbers of russian POW:s they got.

We tend to think that the Wehrmacht already in 1941 had the Tiger tanks and the Panther tanks. But no they had mostly PZW III and PZW IV tanks with guns that had problems even destroying a Sherman tank. Luckyly for the germans tank crews most of the Soviet panzers were not T34 or KV1 or KV2 tanks and the russian tanks were not deployed in the same way as the german tanks.

 

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3 hours ago, Harry Rönnberg said:

The soviet troops had a lot of obsolete equipment

This is a common misperception picked up from the Soviet propaganda. Just looking at RKKA tanks - by June 1941 of over at least 10 thousand tanks in the theater, over 1.5 thousand were brand new T-34 and KV tanks, the sight of which shocked the Germans in their own words. Wehrmacht invaded with barely 4 thousand tanks, most of which should be qualified as what the Soviets called "obsolete."

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Well what in my eyes now seems like obsolete equipment was used against the Finnish army during the "Winter war". But even these used against an army that had very little of ANY tanks were formidable weapons. Unfortunately the terrain and the winter made the tanks less effective than what the Soviet Command had anticipated so the Finns managed to catch about 30 Soviet tanks and train some more tank-units of their own.

The German tanks in 1941 was the PZW II that was more a training tank or used by the tankcommanders to direct their forces in battle, the PZW III which initially had a too small caliper gun to destroy but the weakest armoured Soviet tanks. The PZW IV was equally undergunned. To fight T34, KV1 and KV2 tanks with the equipment available to Wehrmacht must have been almost impossible. In 1942 came the Tiger tanks, improved PZW IV with bigger maingun and in 1943 the PZW V "Panther" all with effective guns. But by that time Wehrmacht was losing the initiative they had had in 1941 until the Russian winter and the streched supplylines and new russian troops started getting the best of them.. Some say that even the battle of Kursk in reality was a defeat for the germans because of the losses the german tankbattalions suffered. Of course the Soviet tank battalions had lost many tanks and tankcrews also but they got replaced whereas the german tank units got rebuilt to former strength rather slowly.

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2 hours ago, Harry Rönnberg said:

Well what in my eyes now seems like obsolete equipment was used against the Finnish army during the "Winter war". But even these used against an army that had very little of ANY tanks were formidable weapons. Unfortunately the terrain and the winter made the tanks less effective than what the Soviet Command had anticipated so the Finns managed to catch about 30 Soviet tanks and train some more tank-units of their own.

Exactly the point. "Obsolete" is a relative term. Speaking of the Finns, as I mentioned before, they were actually much more effective than Luftwaffe against the Soviet VVS in the air - during both the Winter War and massive Soviet offensive in 1944 - while flying their really obsolete fighters, like Brewsters, for example.

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while this is an interesting topic, I have to say that in my personal opinion there are a dozen reasons why the Nazis lost the war but too many guards at POW camps is not one of them. 

People often like to ask "what if" but my favorite is this;  What would have happened if the Allies had confronted the Germans immediately after the invasion of Poland?  People often like to say that the Allies "did nothing" but that's not actually true.  Although they did not do enough and they certainly did nothing decisive, In the Saar Offensive (which never actually fully took place) the French moved 30 divisions to the border and across the border in some areas, occupying 12 towns and villages to a depth of about 8km.  It's a part of history that is forgotten but it interests me to wonder what might have happened had that offensive been pressed in full strength, according to the initial plan.  General Alfred Jodl later said that the only reason why the German military did not collapse in 1939 was that the British and French divisions were completely inactive.  Another German general Siegfried Westpahl, said that had the French attacked in force in September (of 1939) the German army could only have "held out for one or two weeks". 

Now THAT is an interesting possibility!  And if that HAD happened and the German's were defeated, what would the Russians have done???  Imagine that!  A second world war but this one with the German's knocked out early and the Allies fighting to get the Russians out of Poland! 

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Even before he'd been appointed to major office, Churchill's old "gang" from WW1 was beginning to reform around him, one of its aspects was what became known as "Churchill's Toyshop", a War Office department charged with creating and producing "exotic weapons", later this included a range of timing devices for S.O.,E. At the time of the "Phoney War", aka "Sitzkrieg", their main task was the creation of an amazingly smart (for the time) mine, code named "Royal Marine"  intended to be dropped into the Rhine (which passes the French border) which downstream becomes a major transport artery for German Industry. It was a hell of a gizmo, that would vary the depth at which it floated depending on how long it had been immersed in river water, Churchill was very enthusiastic about these mines... alas access to the French section of the Rhine didn't last long, with the collapse of the French army. Churchill had twisted a lot of arms to get his project put into production. There were even plans to air-drop these mines into the Rhine by the RAF. The "Toyshop" stayed in business anyway, and produced an amazing range of weapons and gadgets.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Royal_Marine

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On 17/10/2017 at 7:55 AM, Stephen N Russell said:

Yes we had some POW camps & guarding our bases  & key defense plants BUT we didnt guard prisoners for genocide either, so our Guard ratio had to be Less than the Germans alone.

This idea that Germany lacked troops because of  guarding prisoners of war and concentration camps .

 And that it evened out because of allies too were guarding  prisoners of war, is is simply not the reason the war was lost,

there are numerous reasons, a big one was fighting on more than one front, getting confused about how Hitler looked on England as a future ally, thinking of them as Germanic, I think the waiting game at Dunkirk was a Hitler blunder, I think he went to war too early, he should never have tried out the Soviet Union unless he had secured the west.

He hadn't, he eventually lost out in North Africa, and southern Europe , he did have a brilliant large fighting military force, and I suspect his Generals' were tearing their hair out with some of the orders they were given.

Adolph couldn't be told! 

He was doomed from that, at the start, early successes sent him into a upward spiral , then a downward spiral , he lost before he started. Thank heavens he was a nut and couldn't run a war, and surrounded himself with freaky obsessed weird people Himmler Goebbels , that buffoon Goering, who couldn't run a raffle let alone an Air force. Speer the beaurocrat instigator of cheap killing of a people. 

I'd say that if Adolph Hitler had have been a rational man , things may have turned out differently. And those slime that were with him would be no where in sight.

But if Hitler was a rational man , he may not have even gone to war. He was on the way to turning Germany to an economic giant after the mess of WW1, and the Versaille blunder by the Allies , that was so over the top,  and Hitler was revenge ridden as were many Germans. 

WW1 was one of the greatest waste of humanities history , a stalemate almost  of a war?

And to rip the guts out of the Germans after wards just set the world on another road to WW2.

Guards were just part of the infrastructure, just that type of person , that fit the Nazi mould.

The armies of Germany were German people like everyone else, their soldiers were conscripts and regulars, and I'd say the SS  divisions of fanatics were pretty bad brainwashed  people .

But the normal armies and Navy and Airforce  were just the nations normal people.Dragged into a holocaust like the rest of the world. 

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