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Wednesday, July 12, 2017
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Keith Seago

Why is there a sudden turn to communism?

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I noticed that there seems to be a sudden upturn in stories of the communist in WW2 and I just read an article touting a communist admiral for saving the world. My hero in the Cuban Crisis was President Kennedy not the communist. As far as I am concerned they beat the Germans with the help of the lend/lease act that they reneged on, and never payed back. Their generals were mediocre at best and won due to mass numbers that they massacred at a higher rate than the germans they killed. I was a cold war soldier and I don't like this sudden communist worship from these post. I am a history buff but this is getting sickening.      

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14 hours ago, Keith Seago said:

I just read an article touting a communist admiral for saving the world. 

Well, can't tell you for sure why the uptick, but the story about a Soviet submarine command restraining itself from launching nuclear weapon in several variations is a complete bunk. At the time of the Cuban Crisis no Soviet submarine was capable of launching such a weapon without surfacing and arming it for like 15 to 30 minutes. Throw a limited range on top of it, and it obviously would be toast well before the launch. 

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Why? It's no stranger, the Bush's have profited from both sides of WW2, everything they want to do, they fix it so it happens their way, the whole system is rigged. Home of the free? What a joke!!! Now freedom of expression has taken a crap too!!! A cross is going down, for 49 brave soldiers, why? Because a religious group takes offense? Im not proud of the changes groups are making. If people don't start standing up for their rights, all will be taken. A revolution is in our future.

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My own "hero" from the Cuban Missile Crisis is Oleg Penkowsky. He was a Major in the GRU (Russian Military Intelligence) who was in charge of security within the Kremlin. He was also an MI6 Asset, "handled" by a chap named Greville Wynne. Penkowsky was also a frequent drinking buddy of the General in charge of Soviet Strategic Rocket Forces, whom he had convinced that he was writing a history of those forces - and was granted "access to all areas". Penkowsky was also apparently a wizzard with a Minox camera (so much so that the CIA grew suspicious; he demonstrated just HOW good he was, able to get one more extra frame from each film AND without losing a shot to bad photography. The copious amounts of  material he handed over to Wynne kept a substantial team of CIA analysts working 24 hour shifts. When it was complained that some of the names listed in the documents were unknown.. he provided a copy of the Kremlin's internal phone book as a handy reference. Of course, it was too good to last; Penkowsky knew that they were going to catch him eventually, and generated as much material as he could in the meanwhile. Suicidally brave.

Penkowsky was "our man in the Kremlin", with emphasis on the world "OUR". HE was the guy who put the record of the Central Committee's daily deliberation in the safe each night. What he knew, WE knew. And so did the CIA. And what HE knew was.... EVERYTHING. (When he heard that Penkowsky had been arrested, the Commander of Strategic Rocket Forces put his pistol in his mouth... and blew his own brains out. HE realised quite how bad the leak had been.) Things are often presented as "Kennedy and Kruschev, eyeball to eyeball... and Kruschev blinked first". Rather more accurate would be the image of a game of poker, where ONE of the players is sat with his back to a mirror.. revealing exactly what cards he's holding. Russia HAD no "spare" missiles. What was sent to Cuba had first been removed from the USSR's own front-line, leaving a gaping hole. Penkowsky knew that, it strikes me as inconceivable that he wouldn't have shared that information via Greville Wynne. In which case, what Kennedy could see in that metaphorical "mirror" was that Kruschev was bluffing.  Back at the time, Penkowsky was arrested, and almost immediately executed. Greville Wynne was arrested, and the British government flatly denied that he was anything but an innocent businessman... until he was exchanged for a Russian captive. (When he recounted his own story under the title "The Man from Moscow".) SO Penkowsky's part was significantly played down.for many years.

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10 hours ago, Ron Walker said:

Penkowsky was "our man in the Kremlin", with emphasis on the world "OUR". HE was the guy who put the record of the Central Committee's daily deliberation in the safe each night. 

This part is a conjecture. The fact is that Penkovsky handed out information about the deficiencies of the Soviet delivery means for nuclear weapons. There is a version claiming that he was picked by the Soviet Army brass to leak the info to sabotage Khruschev, when they realized that the latter went all-out warmonger on Kennedy.

10 hours ago, Ron Walker said:

 (When he heard that Penkowsky had been arrested, the Commander of Strategic Rocket Forces put his pistol in his mouth... and blew his own brains out. HE realised quite how bad the leak had been.) 

Obviously, this is a conjecture too. How do you even know this? He was announced to have died in a plane crash - the rest is open to imagination. Otherwise - agreed, Penkovsky was certainly a true martyr for peace, if there ever was one. 

Edited by George Collins

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My go-to reference for issues like this is the Mitrotchkin Archive. Vasili Mitrotchkin was an archivist with the old KGB, tasked when they split his old agency into "foreign" and "domestic" agencies, he was given the task of sorting the KGB's document archives, and splitting it between the two new groups. He decided to defect - in this case to the SIS in the UK. Initially he just copied notes about the files passing through his hands onto cigarette papers, and smuggled them out of the building... But realised that security was very lax and he WASN'T being searched. SO he just began stealing complete documents. His dowry, when he was extracted and brought to the UK was eight full steamer trunks filled with documents. With some assistance, they have ben translated and, after some redactions by the security services... the collected documents were published.for anyone to refer to. Page 238 reads....

Quote

The Soviet Gamble was taken in the belief that Washington would not detect the presence of the missile sites until it was too late to do anything about them. That belief was mistaken for two reasons: Firstly high-altitude U2 spy planes were able to photograph the construction of the missile bases. Secondly American Intelligence Analysts were able to make sense of the confusing U2 photogrqaphs because they possessed plans of missile site construction and other important intelligence secretly supplied by Colonel Oleg Vladimirovitch Penkowsky, a spy in the GRU run jointly by the British SIS and the CIA. All the main American intelligence reports on the Cuban Missile Crisis were later stamped "IRONBARK", a codeword indicating that they had made use of Penkowsky's documents.

How the General died remains a matter of speculation... but then again, so was much of what happened inside the Kremlin. Back then, the front page of Pravda was generally typeset 48 hours in advance (to allow the news to be changed, if it didn't fit with the official party line. Authentically Orwellian,) We don't know how Penkowsy died either. According to Wynne, he committed suicide, according the "Victor Suvurov" he was cremated - alive. Then Suvurov changed his story and claimed that the man burned alive had been someone else.

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8 hours ago, Ron Walker said:

My go-to reference for issues like this is the Mitrotchkin Archive. Vasili Mitrotchkin was an archivist with the old KGB

Right, and here is where the gap lies. KGB indeed was the agency that arrested Penkovsky, but he was a GRU operative, so the version about him being the General Staff's "messenger" is quite plausible without KGB archives containing anything pointing to it.

8 hours ago, Ron Walker said:

We don't know how Penkowsy died either. According to Wynne, he committed suicide, according the "Victor Suvurov" he was cremated - alive. Then Suvurov changed his story and claimed that the man burned alive had been someone else.

I doubt very much that Penkovsky would be allowed to commit suicide in such a case. Your interpretation of what Viktor Suvorov claimed is inaccurate, since you're obviously referring to the Aquarium containing the scene in its preface. However, Suvorov repeatedly stated that Aquarium should not be taken as his literal autobiography, but rather as fiction based on his life story - particularly because he meant to protect certain people from being implicated as aiding and abetting him. Neither he actually named the person in the scene. Hence the perceived discrepancy.

Edited by George Collins

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Interesting points...

Lately I've found myself a little frustrated at the Russian's portrayal historically too.  I mean how in the world can people accuse the American's of being "evil" and "totally self serving" when taking into consideration Isreal???  If the American's really were totally self serving and did not at all care about right and wrong, surely it would make more sense to side with the Arabs and thereby possibly helping secure better access to oil reserves etc.  The damn Russian's are the ones who should be ashamed of themselves for their siding and arming the Arabs in wars they KNEW could result in the extermination of the Jews and the Jewish state!  How could they have done that after what they saw during the war?  And then they gave tanks to Egypt and Syria because they were dying to see how they would preform against the NATO tanks?  Talk about selfish and heartless....

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4 hours ago, Jon M Brown said:

The damn Russian's are the ones who should be ashamed of themselves for their siding and arming the Arabs in wars they KNEW could result in the extermination of the Jews and the Jewish state!  How could they have done that after what they saw during the war?  

To be brutally honest, I don't think that humanitarian or moral aspects of anything dominated most players' calculations. The irony is that arguably the most amoral of them all by the name of Joseph Stalin in many ways facilitated the UN Partition vote establishing Israel for all practical purposes - not out of altruistic considerations, of course, but because he expected its leadership to fall in line. Stalin's attitude dramatically changed when he found out that Ben Gurion successfully purged not only Israeli right but also the Communists. 

Edited by George Collins

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when I was a young man Russia promised to bury us.

I see no sudden turn to being red, just a slow and steady red cancer that is killing our country

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